Canada Day Posts Around Blogland

Well there you have it - Progressive bloggers are optimists about their country - Blogging Tories mirror the party they support and are a bunch of glum dour pessimists.. and thats why the public doesnt want to elect them.

As Warren Kinsella said, show some enthusiasm over the country rather then putting it down constantly, and you might be able to take the first steps of getting the public to look at your party for an alternative.

A good point, Scott. There may be another way of looking at the phenomenon though. Let's do a thought experiment. Let's imagine that the Conservatives had been in power for over a decade, during which time federal funds had been surreptitiously diverted to a number of Conservative-friendly Alberta oil companies. The Canada Health Act had been amended to allow private delivery of some health services, and there was talk of expanding the private-sector role. The Senate had been restructured according to the triple-E model, and direct-democracy mechanisms had been set up, with serious talk that a referendum on capital punishment would soon be held. Canada had declined to ratify the Kyoto Protocol. The government had supported the Iraq war. An inquiry into the Alberta oil-company embezzlement had recently been held, revealing major corruption, but polls indicated the public was ready to re-elect the Cons, as they had the last four elections. The courts in eight provinces had recently ruled that SSM would be unconstitutional, and Parliament had just passed a bill entrenching the traditional definition of marriage across the country. Now it's Canada Day, and Progressive Bloggers are composing their holiday posts. What would you write? I don't know the answer to that question, but I'd be very interested to hear your thoughts if you'd care to print a sample post of what you think you might say in such a scenario.

John,

It's too bad the first 5 blogging tories were so dour. A scientifically minded guy like you knows how fickle picking the first 5 items in a sample of 150 is, of course. So you were natually just showing off the flukey nature of your discovery.

I read many of the blogs on the blogroll, and the majority had "Happy Canada Day" or "Happy Dominion Day" posts. In fact, a little Canada day meme originated in the Blogging Tories, and there was an awful lot of posts along the theme of "I bitch about Canada a lot, but today is a day to celebrate our nation..."

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Scott,

If roles were reversed and you Libs were looking back over 14 years of Conservative government, you'd be doing the exact same thing. It's called human nature, so don't pretend you progressives are above it all. Just look south of the border at your fellow lefties in the USA. They're as glum a lot as I've ever seen.

Given the hypothetical nature of Joel's comment, I doubt anyone could answer it honestly. You don't know it until you lived it.

Andrew, Joel's comment isn't speculative for me. As a member of the socialist hordes since the mid-sixties, I've never met a Canadian government I liked much at all. The least-worst have made small concessions to what I think of as real democracy, and that's been my only reward from the politicians.

But that hasn't affected my pride in the powerful if very quiet, everyday decency of most Canadians -- and I've watched that quality persist through enormous social and demographic shifts and changes in my adult lifetime. I learned my love for Canada from an Alberta Tory dad (born 1907), and I don't think that my feelings now differ all that much from his, formed way back then.

We aren't a nation of celluloid celebrities or of blustering bullies either. He was glad of that. So am I. No speculation required.

I think it is important to note that many ProgBlogs are at least as critical as the Liberal government as many Blogging Tories are :P But with that said many blogging tories did have celebratory posts up yesterday (such as boundbygravity, among others).

Cheers.

Joel, the American left is in the situation you describe. Watch on Monday--the fourth of July--to see if any of them react the way these particular Blogging Whories have.

No, Andrew, there's nothing `finicky' about picking only the top five blogs from a list; it's called sampling.

Now, I don't think this sample is particularly unrepresentative -- it took me all of four clicks to find another blog flying the Canadian flag upsidedown (http://nomoresocialism.blogspot.com/2005/07/happy-dominion-day.html) -- but I also realize that not all blogs on the Canadian right feel this way. Indeed, you'll notice in the post I did not attempt to draw any conclusions from the sample, I merely presented it.

However, if you're interested, here is my conclusion. There is an element of the mainstream Canadian right who actively and loudly hates this country, the people in it, and what the country and those people stand for. Not `hate your country' like the insult thrown at the American left every time they disagree with a government policy; no, I truly mean actually despise the country.

Now, we're lucky enough to live in a country where it's ok to do that. You won't, as in previous lands in previous eras, be thrown in jail; you won't, as today in the US, be branded a traitor with crude attempts to silence you. No, we live in a country where it is perfectly ok; and I have no ill will for any of the bloggers listed above, although it must be hard to be so angry all the time.

But note this: as long as there's a completely mainstream element of the Canadian Right that actively and loudly hates this country, Canadians are not very likely to give the Canadian Right the opportunity to govern our land. I wouldn't loan my car out to someone who hates driving; I wouldn't ask someone who despises cats to look after my cats while I'm away; and I won't ask those who have contempt for Canada to rule this nation.

And Joel: No. I lived in Canada during Mulrooney's time in the PMs office, and never started hating this country. I've lived as a progessive for seven years in the US, and however demoralizing it might have been, never started to hate that country, either. If your sense of love of home and country is so tied to whichever particular ruling party is in office at a given time, I submit there was never a lot of affection for Canada there to start with.

The blogging Tories have two wings: the normal wing, represented by Andrew, and the crazy wingnut wing, represented by SDA.

That crazy wingnut wing seems to actively dislike Canada.

Kinda sad, really.

5/14 said those things. That's doesn't even count the fact that you included an AMERICAN BLOG in a study of CANADIAN CULTURE!

Out of the two who used graphics one of them is writing the Blog Quebecois, enough said.

Rantastic also had this to say: "I will leave this off with my one real nod to patriotism today - the rockingest version of O Canada that exists. Thank you, Big Sugar, for reminding me of one reason why I love this country: we have the best bands anywhere. Take that, Americans. (Am I blending in enough yet?)"

Rantastic started off by saying "I'm not feeling into Canada Day." He's not the only one, I wasn't either and I love my country.

But talk about distortion, look at what you did to Stronghold. You quoted Strong as saying:
"The Canadian federal government created by the British North America Act has evolved into the least representative and least accountable national government in the advanced democratic world"
That was Strong quoting an article, not his own personal opinion. In fact the only words Strong said was "Happy Canada Day"

So out of the five you listed only one can be legitimately said to be a Canada hating Conservaitve. Maybe you were trying so hard to prove something that you were willing to even throw in an American blog to prove your point.

Paul, you missed the point. He just sampled the first five posters from the two main political blogging circles. On the right there was an American and a Separatist. They blogged before other Canadians or Federalists did. He's just showing us a sample, not doing a study. :P

Paul:

I wasn't trying to prove anything; I listed what I took to be representative quotes from Canada Day posts on the first five blogs listed at the time on each list that actually had Canada Day posts. The only conclusion I've drawn -- not in the post, mind, but in comments -- is what I've described above, which I think is fairly unexceptional; that there is a truly Canada-hating element in the Canadian right. You seem to be arguing that it's a smaller element than this sampling would suggest, but I haven't claimed it's a large element; just that it's easy to find.

I'm sorry that listing those posts angers you so much, but I didn't make the posts. I didn't `include an American blog'; I simply reported what's on the list. That many of the most influential writers in the Canadian Right have actually never resided in Canada at all is doubtless significant, but my post didn't attempt to draw any conclusions from that, merely to report what I saw in my little not-very-random sample.

I provided links to all the posts, so everyone can go read them and decide for myself if my characterisations were fair.

Have a great Canada Day weekend!

http://antisocialistmike.blogspot.com/

flys the Canadian flag upside down too.

Happy Canada Day, Canadians!

Most Tories did not blog on Canada Day. Is it possible that they were simply out celebrating? There are around 130-140 blogging tories out there and I'd say around 60-70 that actively post.

If you want to get an idea of where the Tories stand why not go to the big voices in Tory politics? There are four Tories blogging with Blogging Tories and the Conservative site put up its official stance.

There is no denying that the Reform Party had a separatist agenda. But that's not very representitive. What your post said to most was that the Conservatives are not patriotic and the Liberals are. That's what the Calgary Observer got from it:
http://calgaryobserver.blogs.com/blog/2005/07/canada_day_and_.html

Now if you would have STATED what you meant when you had the chance to maybe you wouldn't get this kind of response, I call this unresponsibly journalism of all sorts and an obvious showing of your bias.

Paul:

As I poked around further, there were a number of blogging tories who had really touching pro-Canada posts up; I certainly won't deny that. I just did one small, simple experiment and posted the results.

But you can't be serious when you blame me for showing a bias by not stating a conclusion, right? I think I know what you mean, but it's not quite that; just showing the results of the experiment without any editorial comment of my own and letting people take from it what they will is surely the most unbiased thing I could do.

If you feel strongly enough about it, I'll be happy to add an Update to the post proper that makes it clear that the results of this not-quite-random sampling is surprising, and that I don't believe that those posts represent anything like the majority view of blogging tories.

Kind of a clock rarity this weekend as it is bookended by Canada Day and the 4th of July.

For folks like Johnathan and myself it's a heck of a good excuse for a four day weekend.

Andrew, Joel,

Like you, I'm old enough to remember the end of the Mulroney years. Unlike you (I think), I was far further to the left then than I am now. My first ballot that I cast (in 1990) was for Bob Rae. To put it mildly, I strongly disliked Mulroney. I thought he was arrogant, and the level of corruption being smelled around his government equalled that seen today around the Gomery Commission -- **and** there was the problem of the deficit.

At no point was I ever ashamed at my country or angry at it. Because I never once thought that Mulroney represented a constituency that I thought to be wholly stupid. In 1988, there was the shock of his victory during the Free Trade election. Some around me blamed Quebec for the victory, and even suggested that they should be helped to separate -- this was downtown Toronto we're talking about -- but it was always a small minority.

We never were ashamed at our country or angry with it, of felt that it was populated by fools. This may have been because we were younger, on the cusp of going to university, an embued with the sense that we were going to change whatever it was that was wrong. But about the only thing that got people talking about leaving "this godforsaken land" was a hard winter.

...and personally I liked a good snowstorm. It really muffled the noises of Toronto and made for a strangely silent city.

Interesting discussion. I have an anecdotal tidbit to relate from the E-Group. Scott Tribe posted a "Happy Canada Day" item with a red and white graphic based on the flag (I made the graphic last year and Scott got it from the egroup image library.) He also posted a photo of Lester Pearson with the first maple leaf flag.

A regular Conservative commenter took issue and noted the flag graphic used "Liberal colours" and the historic photo depicted a "Liberal PM". He saw it as a partisan post and called it "despicable."

I think there *are* a number of right-wingers who do hate Canada. They bemoan the entrenched "socialism" here in Trudeaupia or Cubanada. They see Canadian voters as stupid: incapable of electing their social conservative champions. They long to align more closely with US conservatives and surrender our free-thinking sovereignty in order to march in lockstep with the neo-cons. They equate Canada with liberalism and they hate liberalism.

These are the bloggers who are flying the flag upside down. They are the ones who cannot set aside partisanship for a single day of national pride. It's sad, really. Sad, too, that no amount of chastisement from the left will make these blinkered partisans see past their cynicism to the basic goodness of Canada and Canadians.

Since these "nattering nabobs of negativity" despise, ignore or ridicule liberals, it falls to Canada-loving conservatives to cure this cancer in their ranks. Will the patriotic right try to stem this self-hate and slide to US-style polarization? Or will they continue to act as cheerleaders for the Shotgun and SDA?

Thanks to those of you who responded to my question a number of posts above. It's good to know you do have a good attitude toward Canada that extends beyond the times when the country's going in a direction you like.

But Jim, your post shows me again where I think criticism of "Canada-hatred" or "self-hatred" goes wrong. I think you're right that some right-wingers "hate" Canada, as you use the term, and undoubtedly negativity is not an effective tactic for convincing other Canadians to adopt conservative viewpoints. But on the other hand, what does it really mean to hate Canada? Is Canada a political or cultural entity with a national character that is immutable except for some minor flexibility in one direction or the other? Or is Canada a geographic area/human community with capacity for major cultural/political change over time? Historically, I think the latter is correct. But your discussion seems to assume the former. Thus, you object to certain right-wing bloggers' hatred of liberalism and to their refusal to see "the basic goodness of Canada and Canadians." In other words, the way Canada is presently is the essence and definition of Canada -- to loathe Canada's current characteristics is to loathe Canada in both the concrete and the abstract.

But though I haven't examined the particular blogs in question, I doubt that these writers truly hate Canada. If they did, they'd be happy when the country took a direction they saw as faulty -- they'd be happy to see the country fail, and they'd have no desire to avert that failure. By contrast, the anti-Canada sentiments they actually do express are probably borne of the frustration they feel precisely because they do care about the country and are distressed by the course it's travelling. They write about Canada because they want to change it. What you're really objecting to is how radically they want to change Canadian society. That's perfectly fair -- but let's be clear with ourselves that that's what we're arguing about. We're not talking about those who love the country itself and those who hate the country itself, but about those who like the basic countours of our society (and desire larger or smaller improvements) and those who have a radically different vision of what the nation should be.

Further, I would venture that Canada does not hold the highest love or allegiance or anyone on this blog (or most Canadian political blogs). Rather, we all have a vision of the good society, a vision by which we measure Canada and any other society, and by which we're willing to (scathingly) criticize any society that falls short. That's why I asked Scott to consider how he'd feel toward Canada if it were going in a direction with which he disagreed. Based on the posts a number of you have written over the last few months, I have a hard time believing that you wouldn't be deeply disturbed (and possibly quite angry) if certain groups currently rearing their heads were to somehow become a ruling majority in the nation. I suspect you'd have some very strong words of criticism for resulting policies, and some words of lament for the way your country had changed. (In fairness, you'd probably do this all with good taste). You'd be expressing, and working to realize, your vision of the good society -- and that's a good thing. If Canada changed radically enough in a way that completely contradicted your idea of the good society, and if social/cultural differences coincided with geographical divisions, you might even support the breakup of Canada -- better to preserve a healthy society where possible rather than allow the whole society to be shaped according to a destructive model. Your allegiance to the good society -- your allegiance to human welfare -- would have trumped your love for Canada.

Thankfully, this is all hypothetical. And I'm not really meaning to dispute the points you make. But I do want to suggest that everyone, radicals and moderates, are arguing about the good society, and about how Canada can align with that standard. That's why the debate is fun.

Joel, I'd suggest you have a look at some of the comments at the Western Standard blog - The Shotgun. Here's a sampling of Canada Day comments from right-wing Canada-haters.

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From
http://westernstandard.blogs.com/shotgun/2005/07/but_what_does_i.html#comments

"Seeing the Liberal Flag flying anywhere, in a public space, in Alberta makes me imagine how people felt in the 13 American colonies in 1775 when they saw the Union Jack."
----
"In short, a Canadian Liberal is a liar, a thief, a bigot, and narcissist, but accuse others of the same.

A Canadian conservative is an honest, hardworking person who just wants to make a living and provide for their family."
----
"No one can detest Canada more than I. It's racism, fascism and apartheid are all too obvious. The sooner Alberta leaves this putrid dictatorship, the better off our people will be.

All I want to do is keep my job and lifestyle - nothing more, nothing less. I have it good and want to keep it that way."
----
"Couldn't be bothered to think about celebrating a unified Canda. Instead, thought about how soon I can move to Alberta and get on the separation bandwagon!"
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From http://westernstandard.blogs.com/shotgun/2005/07/i_jingoist.html#comments:

"Canada is just a cheap imitation of the US with none of the qualities and all of the liabilities."
----
"I am not Canadian - I am an individual who happens to reside in Canada and possess a Canadian citizenship. I no longer feel patriotism or any kind of affection for this country although I will continue to vote and otherwise participate in our political process and live my life to the fullest. I will continue living and working here but will leave this country without hesitation when the right opportunity arises."
----
"I'm ashamed to be Canadian. Ashamed of our refusal to assist others, whether it be in the fight against terrorism or our fake committments to the tsunami relief. Our refusal to reform the UN but to instead be an intimate part of its corruption.
I'm ashamed of our consistent smug superiority, our condescension to others and our utter ignorance of the hard realities of the world."
----
"Having lived in Ontario, I've seen the Dark Side at work. It is a cold, pitiless place where danger lurks around every corner. People there are unhappy because their society is unable to live up to the lofty propaganda. I am lucky to have escaped with my life.

Down with fascist Canada."

-----------------------

These comments were not refuted. They were cheered on with "Amen" and "Well stated." This is the right-wing that hates Canada. These people are not unhappy about the direction Canada has gone. They are reveling in it. They are looking for the best opportunity to divide Canada and they see AdScam and Liberal arrogance as levers to use when making their case for Alberta separation. The make no bones about their hatred for Canada. They are proud of it.

These malcontents are not looking for ways to improve Canada or to address its problems. They want an end to confederation. They are Alberta tribalists who want to destroy Canada and break the country into multiple fiefdoms.

As I said, it is up to the patriotic right to rebuke these outspoken ideologues. Instead, Joel, you've argued that they don't really exist, that they are really patriots who want a better Canada. Open your eyes to the cancer in the Canadian right.

A few comments for Jim and Joel.

First of all, Jim, don't forget about the echo chamber effect. The Internet proves to be a good home for people with axes to grind, and a lot of the discussion tends to gravitate towards the most extreme, because those who have felt marginalized (through misfortune or through the fact that they are bf crazy) finally have a chance to speak out to people who won't ignore them. The number of people posting regularly in the Western Standards' comments section probably numbers no more than a hundred. Meanwhile, the average Canadians who disagree, but who don't have the time or the energy to rebut (i.e., who have a life), largely do not attend. The Internet as a medium tends to amplify those that speak loudly, and it's easier to forget that the silent majority are still in the majority.

The Western Standard in particular has also done a good job of pushing out anybody who might want to reasonably dissent, leaving only thick-skinned, flame-loving liberal trolls to further stir things up. Reasonable conservatives have probably left the discussion months ago because they don't like being insulted by those who disagree, and are simply not there to rebut. I'm sure they outnumber the extremists considerably. So I am inclined to agree with Joel that, while the outspoken idealogues exist, they are a small minority whose actual influence has been wildly exaggerated by the nature of the medium.

That said, I disagree with Joel when he suggests (if I read him correctly) that it's fair to hate Canada and the Canadians who support it if you hate where the politicians have taken the country... Writing this out, I don't actually think I've described Joel's point properly, but I believe that there is a difference between disliking an idea and disliking the person behind it. I realize it's not always possible, but it should always be the ideas and the policies that get attacked, not the person behind them. Policies are mistaken, and people make mistakes. Some ideas are worthless, but people never are. I believe we should always operate believing that everybody has some merit inside them, and focus our disagreement solely on the ideas being discussed.

It's not easy, but that's the key to civility, here, and actually coming to reasonable agreements in this wild world we live in. That's the attitude expressed by most people; by the people in this discussion group, by rational Conservatives like Andrew at Bound by Gravity, by all but the extremists on both sides of the spectrum.

Anyway, that's my opinion.

Well, Joel, I am a socialist/democrat who comes from Alberta, and nothing trumps my love for Alberta or ever will.

I say I'm a socialist. In fact, I'm a democrat whose notion of democracy means that the closer we get to realizing classical democratic ideals, the less we'll need to think of "socialism" or any other of the C19 isms.

You say that we all have our visions of "the good society," so I suppose we're saying vaguely similar things, except I think that my commitment to democratic principles and structures has a pretty firm historical basis, back in the C17 and C18. I'm not just making things up as I go along, in terms of what I think would be pleasant: I see the logic of defending many principles, whether I happen to like them or find comfort in them or not.

I don't think anyone has yet realized the vision of the early modern thinkers about democracy -- other things (like greed and power) keep getting in our way -- but Canadians, partly by accident (but thank God for the accidents), have somehow gone at least as far as anyone else. The contrast that you drew for Jim Elve above, I think, breaks down in Canada. There is now something rooted in our traditions that makes ordinary citizens inclined to listen to criticism of our traditions.

I look around the world and I think that that paradox is a good thing about us, not uniquely ours, but a good Canadian peculiarity.

When I criticize right-wingers, I don't criticize them for not being socialists. I criticize them for not recognizing what democracy demands of us all. You may be right: if I thought that the fans of putting human rights up to referenda were about to take over in this country, I might consider my options. But then I'm a wimp.

And besides, I remember Tories who would never have done that. I think that my old-time Canadian memories make me justifiably suspicious of the current crop, and where they are getting their plans from.

Wow. Thank goodness I had not read Jim before I posted.

Oh, Lordie, but it hurts so much to see this done to my Alberta. The bluidy carpetbaggers. Grr.

Joel:

Your analysis of the emotional or psychological motivation behind the the overblown Canada-hating rhetoric is insightful and considered, and I can't find much to disagree with. To a certain extent, I do find it a somewhat more paternalistic or "avuncular" approach to dealing with political opponents than I am likely to adopt, especially when I'm dealing with opponents who are adults like myself.

Most of us who are not Conservatives, however, don't feel any obligation to become therapists for our anonymous fellow-countrymen when discussing issues of governance that concern us all.

As members of a political movement, it is the Conservatives themselves who should be expected to outline carefully and calmly the vision they understand as being more positive for other Canadians than what partisans of other political parties support, and not let the discourse be co-opted and corrupted by supporters of their own movement. Few of us can ever find that among the various media space devoted to Conservatism (the current brand of it.) In fact, I only find careful and considered discussions from Conservatives on progressive blogs such as this.

This has to change. Moderate or more considered conservatism has to find its voice within its own political movement, and engender real debate among its own partisans. It is not enough for these Conservatives who've given up the spaces dedicated to their political vision to defend conservatism, conservatives or Conservatives in front of those who will never share that vision, whether they express that respectfully or not.

If that doesn't change, most Canadians will continue to find the present Conservative movement not only resistible, but will view it as harmful, and will actively oppose it for that reason alone.

I'm so upset. I went and read all the comments at the Western Standard, and then I posted a comment of my own.

I hope they ban me.

But damn. That hurts. How can such haters claim to speak for beautiful Alberta?

Just read your Shotgun comment, skdadl. Good one! Don't expect much response. I've posted non-partisan blogging-related info there and got the invisible pixel treatment.

I've spoken out against some of the comments on the Shotgun, both in posts at the Shotgun, and in posts on my own blog.

It's not fair to generalize Conservatives based on a few asses that post on the shotgun.

Those people are a small, small group. Left-wing sites like Rabble.ca do no better.. but up until know, I've resisted using comments on places like Rabble to generalize the left.

Please, be fair.

Toronto Tory:

Perhaps you could point to any comment or anywhere in the post that did any generalizing? Besides your own comment, of course.

The consensus seems to be that there is a perhaps small but certainly very visible element of Canada-hatred in the mainstream right -- and by mainstream I mean linked to by the vast majority of Canadian conservative commentators. Since the left won't be able to convince these people that hating Canada is irrational, it falls to those on the right side of the aisle to either combat it -- or not, and suffer whatever electoral consequences that might bring.

Which part of that is generalizing, exactly? And which part do you most disagree with?

Joel, of course, disagrees that this element even exists -- ``I doubt that these writers truly hate Canada'' -- even when they say, as Jim points out, ``No one can detest Canada more than I.''

Andrew, Joel. and others:

I lived under Mulroney's reign for 8 years, and while I thought most every thing he did was wrong for this country, I still didnt go around telling people I "hated" Canada.

Unfortunately... most of the conservative blogging community has no hesitation in doing this (se Andrew Coyne's blog as evidence of that - its what finally prompted him to shut the comments down), and unfortunately, most of the moderate Conservative bloggers on here will not stand up to this faction and tell thm what they are doing is counter-productive.

A few responses:

James -- Completely agree with you that there is a difference between hating an idea and hating the person who holds that idea. I certainly believe that it is morally wrong to hate anyone, no matter how bad I think their ideas (or their actions, for that matter) are, and I have no business justifying hatred for people. I maintain that even if someone does hate Canada's characteristics AND Canadians, that does not mean that they are motivated only by spite. They may well be motivated by spite, but there is also their vision of the good society that is probably the foundational cause of their dissent and anger. But I don't think hatred of people (or non-civility) is a good thing.

Skdadl -- "There is now something rooted in our traditions that makes ordinary citizens inclined to listen to criticism of our traditions." I think you're right on that. But it's a relatively recent tradition -- probably post-WWII, I would think. If you don't think that Canada has undergone radical cultural changes, check out Canadian thought and culture in 1875 and 1975, and at a few intervals in between. I'm sure there's some continuity, logic, and evolution in the historical path from time A to time B, but also huge differences between the social/cultural/intellectual character of the former time and the latter time. Based on that precedent, I think it's theoretically up-for-grabs what we want Canada to be in the future -- not just within a narrow range of possibility, but within very broad limits.

Scott -- I congratulate you for your fortitude in enduring nine years of Mulroney, and you, James, for casting your first vote in '90 and having to wait a whole three years before the arrogant ruler you disliked was completely annihilated by the electorate. This makes me pretty proud of my unthinkably heroic stamina in maintaining my love for Canada through a dozen years of Liberal rule (of course, they've done a pretty good job in government, but that defeats my rhetoric). Pity the poor guy who remembers rooting for John Bracken and George Drew.

Jim -- I read the Shotgun quite a bit, but I was a bit taken aback by the quotes you gave. Maybe I really should start reading before I blab. After reading your post I went very briefly to the Shotgun. I didn't immediately see the threads from which you quoted, but I alighted on a Canada Day post that I had read, a post that quote extensively from a Trevor Lautens article. If I am erring on the side of defending Shotgunners, it's posts like that one and its comments thread that partly shape my thinking. One guy, a fairly frequent commenter, has a number of long comments on that thread, quoting 12th-century French poetry along the way. He's a good example of what I'm talking about. You might consider his evaluations extreme, his empirical perceptions of Canada inaccurate, or his criticism of the country unduly scathing, but he is certainly a thinker, and I dare you to read a good sample of his comments and then claim with a straight face that he does not have an idea of Canada that he sincerely and deeply wishes the nation would return to. There are other Shotgun commenters like him.

But sheesh, guys, if you keep confusing me with facts and compelling arguments, I might get backed into a corner and have to admit that you're right. May that day never come ... :)

Incredibly, Mike Brock(!) of all people is one of those standing up to this faction, and taking a mighty pounding for it from some of the more egregious hatemongers out there.

Jonathan, you did a great job of pointing out the cancerous core at the heart of the Canadian right wing.

They are ignorant assholes, pure and simple, and don't deserve an audience. That they chose to unleash their bile on Canada Day shows that they are as lacking in class as they are in intelligence.

Timmy, I shamelessly piggy-backed on this post over at the E-Group and Mike Brock's name came up as a rational, patriotic Conservative. I agree, wholeheartedly. I wasn't able to find any specific reaction from Mike to the offensive Canada Day posts. Do you have a link or can you quote an example.

Reasonable conservatives like Mike and Andrew (Bound by Gravity) need to denounce the anti-Canada Shotgun and SDA. When mainstream conservatives fail to slap such treachous extremism, they give tacit approval. Instead of denunciation, what I'm seeing is denial that treachery exist or excuses that such attitudes are justified. Where are the reproaches from the right?

I'm calling on conservative bloggers to show their disdain for the destructive and divisive rhetoric of these extremists by at least removing their links from blogrolls. Incoming links equal blogosphere authority. The centrist right is holding these radicals in high esteem by linking to them by the hundreds and continuing to afford them the authority that blogrolling imparts.

Check out Mike's last two posts (at least as of yesterday), Jim. He takes the Canada haters to task quite reasonably, but is still bombarded as a sellout in his comments. Nonetheless, he is standing firm. It's good to see.

He doesn't specifically address the Canada Day posts, but he covers the overall theme of hating Canada quite well.

Thanks, Timmy. I'd seen those and I agree Mike's fighting the good fight. I was looking for a specific ref to the Canada Day posts but I do see that Mike is addressing the Canada-hate issue. I think Mike could have a bright future in politics, btw. I'm looking for Mike and other young, progressive CPC members to make their party relevant again. Either that or he'd be welcome in the Green Party. ;)

My comments in a post: http://www.wildduckdiary.com/wordpress/?p=48

Jonathan,

To be clear, I was responding to the discussion as a whole, not simply your original post.

"Perhaps you could point to any comment or anywhere in the post that did any generalizing"

I'll start with the very first comment, written by one Scott Tribe:

"Blogging Tories mirror the party they support and are a bunch of glum dour pessimists"

If that's not generalizing, I don't know what is...

Jonathan, you're posting here now? That's too bad. And you'll be very glad to know that I celebrated Canada Day my cleaning my toilet. Oy!

Peter:

Pogge's been kind enough to loan me the keys for the occasional post. This has been my first post; I haven't been kicked off just yet...

And for what it's worth, I spent a good part of July 1st packing boxed and cleaning walls.

For a rather nice show of people doing much less practical and more fun-seeming things, Flickr, as always, is a terrific site:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/tags/canadaday/show

Are you still posting at No More Shall I Roam?